238 thoughts on “E2NZ Redux. Trapped In NZ – Father Won’t Let Child Leave”

1. my situation is a sfollows: i have two kids of two different nz fathers, but one gives me a lot of grief while the other is understanding and supportive of my wish to move either out of ak or even back home overseas.Without permission you are really stuck.
   the resentful ex has (in my opinion) a mental disorder, bi-polar does run in his family. it makes him unpredictable at times, especially as he is not treated for it and drinks alcohol while having Hep C.
   He has assaulted my son in 2009 and a year later his girl friend in 2010. when he admitted the assaults. A parenting order was put in place and supervised visits agreed on.
   how sad that i was soft hearted and believed in his promising words of doing anger management courses and parenting courses to change his abusive behaviour…..
   he has not solved anything really. Whenever you can get a protection order or charge your ex for assault DO IT RIGHt ON THE SPOT, dont believe in the peaceful approach and only be loyal to your child’s and your safety. I dwwply regret that i havent charged him as now he damages my life even worse with a legal battle as a custodian you cannot win.

   My son has been talked over by his lawyer of child to try unsupervised visits, while he was very clear with me that he does not want to see his Dad alone. he is not 100% sure about unsupervised but gives it a try. this causes a lot of worries for my boys safety and my own as well.

   • We were instructed by lawyer that we had to look peaceful and positive towards the ex always, no matter what he did. So although not bringing out in court all the “ammo” we had on his illegal, abusive and bad conduct, , it still went against us. See if your son can tape some of your ex’s aggressions whilst visiting him, by use of a cellphone. My poor son leaves things at home with me that he does not want his father and girlfriend to take from him for themselves (food, money, entertainment gadgets etc.).

2. It would be very difficult for you unless the ex moved as well. In addition, CC is an unstable zone and this would work against you in your application. Very few people are allowed to move kids away from a parent who can demonstrate involvement, regardless of the circumstances. I have heard about criminals, mentally ill fathers, abusive situations, “easily faking more involvement than they actually have”, they still will not permit the mothers to move, and you cannot seem like you are critical of the father, regardless of what he is or what he does. So proving that the involvement is fake and low-quality if he documents it craftily enough is “being critical”, not being real. Upshot – court system outcomes are bullshit and a lot depends on how much effort your lawyer puts into the case.

3. My goodness, I can’t believe what I’m reading… Insanity! My situation is different in that I only want to move from auckland to Christchurch… My kids are English but ex is a kiwi as I am… I’m over having to work in a very stressful job to afford to live here… And with very little effort was just offered a job in chch paying slightly less… I grew up in chch and want the quieter upbringing for my kids, but my ex refuses to let me leave. Friends in the UK were able to move across the country but its looking like I can’t here… Any advice?

4. Hi, my name is Leena. My ex is applying for Permenent Residency in NZ under the partner scheme on NZ. He says that he wants to include my kids name in the application. I’m afraid that he’ll take my kid away and I will be helpless against the laws of NZ. Is he allowed to do this? We have joint custody of my kid so is he even able to apply for PR for my kid without my consent?

   • Leena, you need to see a lawyer. Obtaining New Zealand “residency papers” will go a long way in their courts to show that you are okay with them being there. If you are not okay with them being there or do not trust your ex, fight it tooth and nail.

   • Leena, no,no, you can lost your kid later under NZ system. The court even can allow your ex to apply for NZ citizenship without your permission. It was happened in my case.

     • Yes, but another problem is if you seem too obstructive, that goes against you too. I had a big gag stuffed in my mouth. Lawyer would not let me say anything. It is all orchestrated above your head, and you are powerless. The things that happened to us that I was not allowed to mention. Yet these things were very important to our experience in New Zealand. It was unreal. Their court system is a horrible place to be trapped. Droolers.

       • If you are the money-sided you can allow everything to you, it is how the system works here.

5. I don’t even know where to begin reading all of these stories – except that I feel quite ill. I’m in quite a different, yet similar predicament to a few of you – I know this website was quite easy to find with a quick simple google search, so I’m going to be a bit paranoid and say that I’m not going to discuss my situation on here for fear of other parties tracking it down, however if anyone would like to be in touch with me to discuss it, just simply chat or whatever, my email is mje17@waikato.co.nz.

   • Hi Sandra here – my heart goes out to you all. I am Irish and lost my relocation case to go back to Ireland with the boys in December. I have 2 boys ages 6 and 4- have been seperated from their dad for 2 1/2 years. My eldest was born in Ireland and one year later we came back to NZ and had my 2nd child. Dad has shown a transient ‘when it suits him’ interest in the boys since we seperated. No family here, no real support. I feel the judge basically said I was resilient and coping well and dad needs to be more pro-active. What? so because I havent fallen apart completely and hes not a wife beating drug addict I am forced to stay here?

     Would love to chat to some people who have been through similiar – slicki30@hotmail.com

     • Just to add a further spanner in the works……anyone hoping to go back when their kids are 16 (just because they can override their father’s decision)…you need to consider if your child wants to go to uni.

       It seems that the university system in the UK expects you to reside in the UK for 3 years prior, in order to get domestic fees. Else you have to pay international fees (much higher). If your child wants to be a doc, dentist or vet…..the fees are ridiculously high…30K + POUNDS per year in tuition.

       People who are thinking of emigrating, beware!!! Do your homework! You can’t just go back if it doesn’t work out, and the repercussions for both you and your child are long term!

     • Can anyone advise how long they took to get a decision through the NZ court system ? I know all cases are different but almost 2 years and still no court date here !

       • That is a potential problem, uk lady. The problem with a child who is waiting to leave New Zealand with you and you hope the court might “listen to him when he is 13 or 14” for the purpose you describe above, is that it’s still fightable if the child is younger than 16. So you might end up spending the UK uni fees on a court case in an effort to bring him back to the UK before he is 16 anyway! And sadgrandma, it took me almost 3 years to actually appear in front of one of their “judges”. Insane. Gave my ex enough time to get himself a job and ostentatiously go off of drugs. He became involved with someone else but held off formally hooking up with the piece of work he’s living with now until after the decision. Also underworked to qualify for legal aid. Their system is not one you want to become sucked into.

       • sadgrandma – 3 years for me before we appeared in front of a judge and actually received a decision. A lot can happen in 3 years. So for example the father involved in my case cleaned up his dope and underemployment act of many years, and presented himself well as a reformed person and good father, carefully coached by his lawyer to spout “caring speeches” smack out of a breakfast cereal commercial, at a nod from the lawyer on the side that he was to “stand and deliver” at given times. Disgusting, just theatre.

6. Hi, I’m from England and stuck in aus. I’ve been here for almost 10 years and I long to go home now. My ex is also a controlling and sometimes abusive man and has put me and my son through an awful time.
   I don’t know about NZ but Australia is a very patriarchal society and your role as Mother and primary care giver is not viewed as worth a whole lot.

   • In New Zealand they have that bloke worship problem, too, unfortunately, My sister was told that the father, with an unimpressive employment history and drug problems, cunningly and serially living off of women because he can barely stand on his own two legs, was needed as some kind of balance and an anchor for the poor child, merely by the fact of being a male in his life, because mothers are just lightweight fluff apparently? And you do not want your son growing up to be one of these brittle blokes walking around with uncriticisable giant cardboard testicles tied to his hips in place of being a real person. It goes back to Victorian ideas that women were weaker. They are decades behind in their sociocultural thinking in this part of the world. This is very unfortunate for foreign women from modern nations who fall into a marriage trap with these pathetic men, and then become trapped in a post-divorce custody nightmare with them, forced by their love for their children to reside in these backward nightmare countries.

   • Hi Claire, I am in a similar situation. Where are you in Australia? I am a mother in Melbourne. Might be nice to make contact. Hopefully we can contact each other through this website but if you are close we could have tea?! (-:

7. B :
   Hi Helene,
   I am in a similar situation too. I want to take my son back to Australia but his Father won’t allow it. I live in one of the most expensive towns in NZ but the wages in this area are generally one of the lowest in the entire country?! I feel that when it comes to my ex it is more about him ‘winning’ and having power over me than it is to do with truly wanting more access to his son. To make matters worse, when we split my son and I and were entitled to nothing from him (financially) as his house was in a Trust and I currently receive $19 per week in child support. I am outraged, I feel cheated and more than anything I am just so homesick all the time. I realise that there are a lot of Fathers out there that have been screwed over by the family court system in the past and that is why the courts have decided to treat Fathers equally now, however I feel that they are overcompensating for past injustices and now Mothers like you and I, Helene, are paying for their past bad judgements.

   • Hi Helene

     I 100% agree with you. My Ex husband physically assaulted my 15 year old son (He punched him so hard in his face he split his lip, then grabbed him by the hair and pulled so hard he had a fist full of his hair in his hand). I have given the courts proof that my ex was a violent man and this is not the first time of violence against children and woman, yet the courts still gave my husband 50% day to day care of our 7 year old child – I’m devastated. And just to rub the salt in the wounds, I’ve been served with a prevention of removing a child from NZ for my 7 year old. We are all British Citizen’s including my Ex husband and I can’t understand why the courts would allow this man so much power with such a violent history. Is this really done for the sake of the child, or is this so NZ have the statistics to show the world they’re a fair country and treat father’s as equals??? – its a shame they’re not taking into account the child’s welfare.

     • Its because he is ‘the man’ that is all – it’s Penis Power in NZ, majority of judges believe they have to make up for the years ago when mums got ‘custody’ note how the word custody was removed from the courts last few years – they emphatically believe in shared care with dads being a status quo if you happen to have a son – omg lol forget being the one who gave birth – sick bastards my fellow kiwi judges and lawyers are. Mums, Ask for shared care and you WILL get it of you do not already have it – at least then you have equal footing – then go for more time little by little – this strategy had worked for me for some time – But no, you cant leave NZ 😦

8. john :
   im yet another one trapped in purgatory here in nz. the one thing that i never can understand is how people in nz always tell me i should just go back home as im just the father, and start a new life. there is no way i could ever leave my children. unfortunatly i have to live in a underdeveloped, expensive, low job prospect country that i have nothing in common with ( im canadian which some say is similar, but i havnt found that at all)
   seems there are alot of other expats trapped here in nz.. might be worth setting up a dedicated web page on the issue, if any one is interested let me know

   I only just come across this..
   John, Im a New Zealander trapped in purgatory here in Canada, namely this absolute trash hole Toronto.
   I feel your pain mate, people here have said why dont you just go home and start a new life. Thats like telling you to drown your own children! no one can just start a new life and leave their children behind!
   I was here on a working holiday permit with my Canadian girlfriend (lived together in Oz before coming here) long story short she got what her family wanted, and as a father and non resident here I could do nothing about it. Daughter was abducted to Panama. And even though the law here states its child abduction, even though the law here states that any child travelling with one parent must have the other parents signed and notorized consent, I couldnt do anything about it unless involving lawyers and an absurd amont of money. Even the head off security at pearson airport told me this to my face. I earnt more than $12000 so couldnt apply for assistance, but thankfully she was returned a month later.
   Its so damn expensive to live here supporting myself, my daughter, and get by day to day with absurd insurances, immigration paperwork taxes and bills. No family, no support.
   Socializing? doesnt exist working all week, and doing 200km travel each week just to get your child as the mother is just useless.
   Taking my Daughter back to N.Z just for a holiday to see her real family who I havent seen in over 3 yrs? Good luck coming up with the $5000 alone just for the tickets. She’ll be lucky to see them by the time she hits her teens, by which time the white trash canadian side of her family would have sunk their seedy way of life into her as much as possible
   Im a strong man, have endured more than most would believe, and have come to terms with many hard things, but these things/situations that are happening to people on here like you and many others makes my blood boil.

   I do understand the emotions, frustrations and disbelief of how this all feels, albeit different in some way for all of us.
   I also hope that maybe there has been a site set up for you expats trapped in N.Z, at the very least to be an avenue for you all to get some sort of help. And maybe if this thread or whatever it is still has some life in it, that I’ll get a note or link back to it.

   Best of luck to you ALL

9. My situation is similar except im from nz, my ex is from arab emirates, my brother has moved to australia and i wanted to take my 3 month old baby for a visit, she will b older by the time i leave, two days later i get a knock on the door with papers served to me preventing me taking my girl along with txts and statements against me. im frustrated that i have day to day care of her, do everything for her and he has the right to make all the decisions. So even though im from nz it doesnt matter. I sympathize with all your stories .

10. I bc a friend who has a daughter going thru the same thing only in serbia. Her husbands parents want to keep the son, but not the daughter, and husband tried to kill her.

11. Do you guys think this is just New Zealand???? Live around the world and you will see its the same in most countries, especially with mixed marriages. I have lived in 8 countries over the past 20 years and not once I hve I heard of a situation like this been easy. It’s not New Zealand , it’s worldwide. They are trying to protect the kids. This is what happens when you leave your country of origin, and none of us think of this when we have kids and relocate. I did because I’d heard for many years of the same stories, I’m (happily) married to an arabic man and have 2 children. They were born in NZ and are under my sponsorship. I did this because I had heard of stories like yours and my lovely husband agreed for my peace of mind because he loves me and trusts me not to take them away unless there extreme bad circumstances. So as much as my heart goes out to you all, I’m sorry but you walked in with your eyes shut. I do wish you all the best and hope it works out

    • Well done you, it must be wonderful to feel so secure in the arrangement you have with your husband.

      But, as you know, there have been cases where parents have been able to get their children out of New Zealand and persuade local courts to keep them there, in one case a child left Invercargill for medical treatment in Europe and never returned, despite action by her father in NZ to have her brought ‘home’ . Don’t be so sure that will never happen to you, despite all your forward planning.

    • Hi Jacqui, thank you for your post, but I disagree with your comments ‘you walked in with your eye’s shut’. I moved to NZ with my British husband and two children (All of which are British Citizen’s). When we moved here, we did so with freedom of choice.

      Maybe I have old fashioned views on marriage, but when you marry, you do so with the intent of spending the rest of your life with that partner. Plans and decisions are made for your future and for your old age – and I think very few people enter into a marriage with the thought of what they will do if they divorce. (Would you marry if you’re thinking of divorce). I never in a million years expected my husband to physically assault one of my children, or have an affair behind my back – but he did and I have to accept that.

      You said you had heard stories about what could happen if you moved to a foreign country – and you took action just in case you were-ever put in that situation. Well you are one of the lucky one’s. For most of us we had no idea this could happen, and its not because we are ignorant or naive, but because we all thought we had freedom of choice to make the right decisions for our children – and if we ever needed to – we could return back home to our families in times of need. You said its to protect the children. How is it in the best interest of a child to live without their mother because she can no longer cope living in isolation and depression and has had to return back home without her child. Has anyone actually thought about the impact that is going to have on both of their lives – its a catastrophic that’s what it is.

12. I am a Kiwi male with a Japanese ex. Two boys, eldest born in Japan, youngest born in NZ. Lived in NZ from 2000 – 2007, In 2007 we moved back to Japan, on the understanding it was for 3 years maximum (I previously had lived there for 12 years, 10 with my ex). Relationship broke down, divorced, agreement made for minimum weekly Skype call, and minimum 6 weeks unfettered custody of children per year. Have been paying full child support since day one of separation.

    I left Japan in 2010 (business reasons). I have never received any custody, never received consecutive weekly phone calls (at times has been up to 2 months between calls), have made 9 trips to Japan in the last (almost) 3 years to maintain contact. Ex has threatened to take them away and hide them when I notify her of a trip to see boys, although she hasn’t actually done it. Ex refuses to support financially any of my travel costs. Japanese courts refuse to recognise any of my parental rights, just my obligation to pay in yen. Boys haven’t seen their Kiwi family and friends since 2010. Now when I call, if mother is out all cool, we chat and have a good time.

13. Wow, these stories are heart breaking – but believe me there is hope! I have heard many success stories with similar circumstances. Keep persevering and wear a beautiful smile, no matter what is thrown at you !!

14. Does anyone know the statistics within the courts, I mean has anyone ever won their case when going through the courts to leave New Zealand with their kids

    • Kiwi sent back to australia, kiwi father who has access, gets equal rights the Hague Convention, does nothing to protect from abuse when its not physical

    • Hello ..I have read and re read this site>>>>in1998 through the Christchurch family courts I got my 8 year old son back..and flee back to Uk..it took Barristers in NZ and UK and every penny I had..I had to come back on a “care and Protection order ” when I arrived in UK..social services told me to go away NOBODY in uk could understand what or why this had happened ..It has had profound affects onmyson and myself..ever since ….

15. Rebekah :
    ok i am kiwi my ex is kiwi but my fiance is americain and i want to relocate there. i have no parenting order in place i allow the father supervised visits as he is wasted most of the time and i want to keep my child away from that for as long as possible. he has said he wont let me leave the country or even the area. he will not even let me relocate in New Zealand. i am just about to start the first part of court processes, firstly a protection order as he is abusive. i would very much like to talk with some of you and be part of a support group. i am not happy here and i do think my baby needs a father figure but i dont think that has to be the biological father as up until now he has had stuff all contact and not wanted it. but he sees baby at f ‘fun stage now’ so wants to take him to his drug filled home. i hope and prey the courts wont allow him to be able to take him home. it will be very damanging to my childs developement.

    They do not give a ratz about parent’s or a boyfriend girlfriend’s drugged-out lifestyles in New Zealand, and you will not be permitted to relocate, even if the father is in jail, has a criminal record, or is actively abusing drugs currently. and exposing the child to it. I have been through this. They do not care. Or alcohol. What these dropkicks have to do to lose their “rights” in New Zealand, I do not know. Mass murder, maybe? Probably not even that.

16. I hope when you read this that you are both home in the uk. I lived in NZ a few years ago with my husband – he’s a kiwi. My oldest son was born there and I will never be able to thank them all for that they did. However I would never live there again by choice. We can all do scenery! What I want is to be able to buy whatever I want in a shop.

17. Reading all of your posts makes me realise our situation looks bleak. My son (kiwi) has been offered work in Perth, he currently has guardianship of his 5yr old daughter. He contacted the mother(also kiwi) to let her know and she said that he can only take her if he moves to Brisbane, she lives in nz but has a sister there. She has another child to another person in her care. The reason my son got care was because the mother could not provide a safe environment for her. She has a criminal record as well as a cyps record, of which my son has neither. She has contact in the school holidays, although can phone, skype etc whenever she wants, which she never does unless my son rings her. He phoned his lawyer and was told that the mother must agree for him to take his child with him, and if she doesnt, then I (nana) can apply for guardianship. However if he goes the mother can come pick up the child, regardless. He was hoping to go over and get settled before taking his child over at christmas as she wants to finish her school year off.
    Now he doesnt know what to do. He wants to provide a better life for his child yet the mother whom is on a benefit and has no intentions of looking for work can dictate what he does, how can that be FAIR.
    Unless he stays here goes on the benefit like her and does nothing, Im sure the government would like that.
    How can he better his life and his daughter’s when the mother has the right to keep dragging him back into the gutter the she lives in.
    All she wants her daughter for is to get money off my son.

18. Hi there,
    Just wondering if a support group or anything like that has been set up yet. I’m one of you and would love to get in touch. I moved here 18 months ago with my kiwi husband. Until then my (soon-to-be-ex-)husband and I have lived in Germany (I am German). Our daughter was born in New Zealand 14 months ago. We always said we would give it a try in New Zealand for 2 years and would then decide where we would live – unfortunately we did not do this in writing, I just trusted my husband that he meant it.
    I realized very early on that I don’t like it here. Yes, New Zealand is a great country but it is nothing like home. I voiced that opinion shortly after we arrived here which led to a big fall out between me and my (soon-to-be-ex-)in-laws. My husband and I separated four months ago and he has a new partner. Of course he has no intentions of moving back to Germany to be with his little daughter. He is enjoying his new life in New Zealand too much. I desperately want to go home. I’ve spent the last four months in waiting as my husband says he is still undecided if and when he would let me and our daughter go. The more time passes the less hope I have that he will choose in mine (and as I believe) our daughters favor. In my opinion he is just buying time. On top of that his new girlfriend might be infertile since she tried to get pregnant for years with her husband (yes, she is still married a swell) and I doubt he would let his daughter leave if there is no hope for him to have more children with his new girlfriend
    I know if I take it to court, my chances of winning are very slim – if not to say impossible. But I still have to try, right?
    I would love to get together with some of you to talk about experience, chances, crushed hopes and just sharing stories and emotions!!!!

    • Sorry but there are no support groups that we are aware of. However you may wish to introduce yourself on Expatexposed.com/forum. You may find other parents with the similar dilemmas.

19. All this I can completely relate to because I have done it and experienced it as well. Your remark “If a high percentage of the native population can see things aren’t flash here and voting with their feet, why do single foreign parents have to be stuck here?” I actually mentioned this in family court. That New Zealand is not an easy place to live in, that many Kiwis leave it, that it often has something to do with the parents breaking up in the first place, and surely this should be taken into objective account? It was not. I assume it did not go down well either, because our outcome was not a good one either. They prefer “stupid, simple solutions that purport to solve messy problems they can’t deal with” in New Zealand. Like buying something off an infomercial that is marketed in such a way as to seem to wave a magic wand over your life. An exercise machine that will make you beautiful or the like? Thus they seem to think that having a father physically present in a child’s life all the time, even a dysfunctional father or one who doesn’t pay that much attention to the child, is in and of itself magically enough to make up for a large group of negatives in the child’s life, such as the poverty trap of NZ – something that they prefer to put in the too hard box because it is too big, unflattering, and unsolvable.

20. Hi I’m Australian and long to return to friends, family, higher pay, better super, get away from the earthquakes and volcanoes, and look after my sick Mum. //My son is kiwi. His father is kiwi. My son’s father chose to leave us last year and I had to get my legs under me quickly. I immediately asked for permission to leave, he said no. I was stunned! I explained how my Mum is sick and my Father needs help looking after her. His reaction was to say I could fly over for visits. This is beyond my pay. //I’m so unhappy, keep waking up between 1.00 am and 4.00 am and feel poor with no prospects for improvement any time soon – despite a good education and upward career in Australia before our son’s birth. //If Mum goes into a home, I will have to pay in kiwi dollars which will reduce us to hand to mouth! I’ve calculated if I stay here I will probably have to retire here. Being a single Mum and recently returned to full time work at a lower level and studying for better income, life is hard. I’m worried about my finances, have no support and the pressures of raising our son and working full time/studying part time is exhausting. I wake at 5am just to squeeze study time in before work, so I can play with our son after work before cooking dinner. This sounds like a Monty Python sketch, but it’s one woman’s life stuck in NZ. In an effort to save money I’ve cut the car insurance to third party and completely cut contents. I don’t visit the doctor or the dentist and don’t drive the car much because petrol has gone up. I use holidays to give our son a break from holiday care (and my wallet a break from paying for holiday care) – this eats up most of my leave. Our son gets 12 weeks school holidays and a minimum of four teacher only days off each year. My annual leave is 4 weeks. My personality has flown south for winter but I suspect it’s returned to Australia permanently without me! //Reading all the stories above is plain depressing, which is layered on top of the depression and stresses already felt for being a single foreign Mum. The statistics for poverty levels in older women without a man could well make a Grimm Fairytale. Some go without heating to save electricity. //If I was to move to Australia it would be important to me for our son to stay in contact with his Dad. With skype and viber and the number of school holidays – this shouldn’t be a problem. //The diaspora in NZ is due to earthquakes, better pay outside NZ, broader career prospects, tightening kiwi job markets, etc etc. If a high percentage of the native population can see things aren’t flash here and voting with their feet, why do single foreign parents have to be stuck here?? It feels sub-human and third world. Last year I was suicidal; as my hope for a decent future and respite from the pressures of day to day living appeared as a mirage would in the heat of a desert. A very dear friend in Australia helped to herd me away from my thoughts of suicide. I am now soberly facing up to the brutal facts and the short, medium and long term effects of being stuck in NZ. //There seems to be a great number of us? Why don’t we start putting pressure on the politicians to change the laws? Why don’t we start an organisation called Stuck in NZ (SINZ). Why can’t we organise a network for support and solidarity? Why don’t some of us study to become Family Lawyers and then metamorphise into Family Court Judges? How can we empower ourselves to take positive action that will lead to positive results? Let’s shout out until our plights are understood and change is affected?

    Most of all let’s make NZ legislation change so that we can be good parents who revel in the caring years and the innocent child and the preciousness of childhood; as opposed to parents who count down the years and days until age 16; or contemplate returning to our home country without our children. Parenting is hard, single parenting is harder and foreign single parenting is hardest.

    • I’m a New Zealander in exactly the same situation but stuck in Australia with a baby and no support what so ever!

21. Thank you everybody for sharing your stories. My heart goes out to all of you who are in a difficult situation. I am not a mother my self so can only imagine the heart ache you are going through wanting to leave with your child/children but are not able to. I am just in the process of divorcing my husband. We do not have children, but the scenarios I have seen here on this blog, has been haunting me and I have been very scared of starting a family here as I have heard how difficult it can be should I wish to leave one day. As I am all ready now homesick, I come from Sweden, I have decided it is not worth the risk to start a family here.

22. I’m so sorry for everyone story and i can relay on them all, As my story is not far from different !
    I have been leaving in NZ for 7 years, But obviously fell in Love with a kiwi guy ( at 21 yo). everything went too fast, until i realised that he was a control freack alcoolic abusif man ! of course i left him a couple of time, and all time had to run away if i wanted to keep my furniture safe with me. i was living elsewhere i was ok happy of course alone, met a guy didnt last long so then decided it was time to go and travel again ! Of course i was silly enaugh to have one last time sex with my Ex. And happenned to get pregnant . So 2 months after that i was moving back with him, He was ok at the time, Caring bout the fact i was pregnant. Until i gave birth and then he was more than Violent and agressif, Drinking way to much going into my daughters bedroom when he was really drunk waking her up, And much worse stories. His mother told me to leave him, and i was scared to leave him and that he keep my daughter so of course i went to get legal help. Put a protection order on him … and left him . Of course we both fighted he denied all allegations , and refused my daughter to go on holidays to visit her family had to drop charges if i wanted to go, which i did I met another kiwi blog in main time. I got to go on holiday to my dads 50th birthday with my daughter, but the judge back then decided to drop protection order, and to give a week about share day to day care. Of course i told my ex to let me look after my sdaughter during his week, like that i could keep her woth the same routine, and he wont pay for anything to get her looked after. of course he made lots of things difficult during that time. Until i started to have doubt about the identity of My daughter real dad . And 2 months after that i asked my lawyer to ask for DNA test. when i talked to my lawyer about it, MY ex partner decide to take my daughter off my care during his week to put her in care with someone else. 3 weeks after that when my lawyer finally got the ok go from legal aid to have DNZ test money, he talk to my ex’s lawyer which this one got back to him with an DNA test results Saying he isnt the dad and he had the result already 3 weeks ago. I felt happy and sick in the same time, The only thing i wanted to do is to get my daughter back. I bnever liked letting her go to her but if i wasnt doing it i would be arrested for not letting her see that man. Now 5 months after all of that, MY Ex say he want to be legal gardian of my daughter, My actually partner and i are having a child in november, And my Daughter is saperated from me every second Week Because the judge is not even able to see whats best for my daughter. I can not go and visit my Family on holidays before giving birth as my daughter got a Capps listing on her, and the judge said it wasnt for hwr best interrest to go overseas to see her family ! . The judge seems to forgot why i left that man, Seems to forget he is not the father and that my actual partner is a better figure. My daughter always come back home saying bad words, With a different attitude, forgetting her manners, bitting, hitting, and most of the time with a cold or caught or flu ! it takes 3 days to be able to have my cute little daughter back to normal. I’ve got forbidden by the judge to tell my daughter who is her real dad, aswell as telling her that my ex is not her dad. now i have to go back to court at the end of august just for telling us what to do about the application for legal gardianship my ex made, and again my lawyer did told me that it will take until next year. My daughter is 3 and half years old. And i fear for her to be separated from her family ( me her sister and her step father ) every second week ! and how much more messed up she will be,. I cry every friday when i know i have to bring her to that man the day after. And even if he keep on breaking undertaking, parental order. nothing gets done. He keep on Texting me to harras me , he keep on calling when he is drunk in the middle of the night ! he keep on drinking when he has her ! and he lies about me to the court !
    i felt to start with that new zealand was home but since me and my daughter are not able to go on holidays to visit family and dying family members, i feel like i am in a prison.
    nothing is done for my daughters welfare and if i do something wrong i can get arrested …. and i am really thinking about keeping her with me and see what would happen!

    i know that man by heart and he qwill never stop until he get what he want, and at the moment he just want to hurt me ! and he is uusing my daughter for such matters !
    he sy he still wants to be a legal gardian and stay on the birth certificate , but he stopped paying child support the day he knew he wasnt the biological dad ( i precise i dont care about child support , i am paying him child support too )
    he stoppped me from seeing out of the sudden for 4 and half months during his week, Never tought about what is best for her !
    he stopped her from seeing her REAL family Blood to blood !
    he refuse her to know her other culture ! well since he is =nt the dad she only has one culture !
    i just dont know what to do. Me , my partner,my all fmaily, and all my firends are really not understanding why is that all happening !
    i never had tjhe chance to get listenned to ! and so that never left me any chance to be able to save my daughter from that man ! i feel useless !
    sorry for my english and my spelling i dont double check !

    • A warm welcome to you and thank you for sharing your story with us.

23. A few friends are going through divorce cases here, and it is next to impossible to prove abuse. The attitudes here are that other countries “coddle” their children and in New Zealand they healthily “harden them up” or “man them up”.. Sometimes Kiwi parents get a surprise when they move to some other country and are hauled up on abuse charges. Example –

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10806640&ref=fbheadline

    Article on how bad life in Australia is for Kiwis. No dole, not services!

    “Immigrant’s bad experience””

    “A Kiwi father, who moved to Queensland after fleeing the Christchurch earthquake, is lashing out at his new city as too “politically correct” after being convicted for leaving his 9-year-old son unattended at a Brisbane shopping centre.”
    “The family had been in Queensland for just a few months after leaving Christchurch in search of “a safe place to raise children”.”

    • In New Zealand it is against the law to leave a child under the age of 14 on their own.

      One way that Kiwi parents get round this is to send their kid alone on a long shopping errand, or on a long walk to a relative’s home.

      It is a well known fact that New Zealand has an appallingly high rate of preventable child deaths and child abuse, obviously the “harden them up” strategy is a miserable failure. The children who survive to adulthood go on to perpetuate the cycle of abuse and maltreatment.

      For more: http://www.safekids.org.nz/Downloads/Safekids%20News/SKNews_March2012_final_web_12March.pdf

24. I’ve been through the family court wringer in New Zealand applying to relocate with my daughter back to the UK. I went to hell and back and then some.
    I understand how awful it is, especially when you are alone and a million miles from home and support when you need it most.
    I felt, and I believe many other share the same experience, that the courts immediately put you on the back foot for wishing to relocate and change your child’s status quo. However I believe my reasons were very reasonable- I simply wished my daughter to have a better life as I think most parents naturally do. I wanted to move back home to the UK for familiarity, family, friends, support network, better job opportunities, more affordable living and better financial security to offer my child. The courts used all sorts of things against me, and glossed over the father’s negative points (they there were some major concerns, such as pot smoking, being abusive, and being work shy) supporting their own citizens. I looked bad in the courts eyes for evening mentioning these things and I felt I’d have more chance of a successful relocation if I just shut up about that. New Zealand prefer the “friendly” approach to relocation. However you are damned form the beginning, eventually I realized that I would never be granted permission to relocate back to the UK with my daughter. I clearly stated that I did not at all want to cut out my daughter’s father from her life. Quite the opposite, I wouldn’t have moved to NZ in the first place if I didn’t want my daughter to have a father. I generously offered him 4 holidays per year in NZ and UK and a computer and internet service to keep in regular touch and I would foot the bill for all of that. It’s not ideal, but when 2 parents are from different countries it’s the best solution I could come up with. The father said no, that he will have our daughter full time and I can come and visit her. I am not a bad person at all, I’m a normal regular mummy. I would understand it if I had some terrible flaw, like being on heroin or something like that, but I’m not like that at all!
    My daughter was born in the UK and I was never married to her father. We were together for a year and a half while we both lived in the UK. We moved to NZ when our daughter was 6 months old. I knew early on I wasn’t happy in NZ, and there was none of the father’s family nearby either, they all live 6 hours drive away. I was feeling isolated and depressed, with little work opportunity. I have previously had a lucrative career in the UK and my aim was to replicate that in NZ, but unfortunately after exhausting every avenue it was not happening. My ex asked me to give it another year, which I did. So by the time I had completely made up my mind to return home to the UK we had been living there for 2 years. At the point of applying for relocation I thought “2 years, whoop-de-do”, the courts can clearly see that we’ve never settled here? No, they didn’t!
    I spent 2 years going through an agonising and expensive court process, enduring further abuse from the father and felt like I was living in hell. I was advised by my lawyer that to apply for a protection order in NZ would put me out of the running for relocation as the judges view that as a barrier to relocation, so I had no choice but to suffer on thinking of the long term goal, to get back home. I bent over backwards to be nice to the father, to try and make things as comfortable as possible, but things got worse and worse.
    By the end of 2 years fighting twice in the courts for relocation, it was clear that the courts were not in support of my daughter relocating back to the UK anyway!
    I was ill, skinny, messed up, a shell of my former self. I was permanently run down. I knew I couldn’t take any more. I felt like I was going to die within a year. That is no way to be a good parent to your child, my child was suffering because of my anguish. And I felt the awful conflict between my and the dad would never cease, it would only get worse. That’s no good for a child to see. Such a contrast to the happy day she was born and my excited hopes for her future, ones that I thought her dad shared too.
    I returned to the UK with my child end of 2011, my father was ill and consequently died. Despite this I started to feel happier, being back home and feeling for the first time in years safe. I could see an attainable future again. My daughter was also the happiest she’d been in years and we maintain regular phone and skype contact with her dad. In NZ it was living in permanent limbo, and having to run every life decision past the father, you lose your human right to autonomy in so many ways, and an abusive man uses the courts to gain more control. I knew that I couldn’t return to NZ in my heart and health. Her father applied through the Hague convention to have our daughter returned to NZ and was successful. All those clauses in the Hague convention (clause 13 b regarding grave risk of harm to the child) mean nothing. No matter how depressed I had been feeling in NZ and the knock on effect that had on my daughter the fact that we’d had shared care and he was willing to have her full time meant that was no defence. The abuse we’d suffered wasn’t bad enough, and they advised that NZ could sort out a protection order upon our return, they can’t do that before you leave. I have found out each country interprets 13 b differently, and even in very serious high end abuse, the Hague policy is to return the child to the other country and to get the social services of that other country to intervene. Who would want to live in the other country under a protection order when you can live in your home country and feel safe?
    Sadly I had to let my daughter go back with her dad recently. She is only just 5. She was ripped from my arms crying and screaming and saying quite clearly that she wanted to stay with me. Her father came to collect her.
    I am choosing to remain in the UK without her. To some that might seem terrible, as when you become a mum you stick by your kids through thick and thin, end of. I also feel like that. I am a good mum. But I view it as self preservation. I’d rather get myself strong, being home and happy and importantly alive for her when she is older and needs me. I just know I couldn’t carry on living lie that in NZ any more as I would be little use to her feeling the way I did. Or worse I would die. I really tried very very hard to make a life in NZ, but I just wasn’t big enough or strong enough to hack it.

    • Hi all, I’ve written a book on my experiences of being held hostage here in New Zealand because the courts wont allow my 7 year old son to return back to the UK. I thought this was an isolated case until I read all of the above and below. Myself, two children and Ex husband are all British Citizen’s, yet the law here has the powder to stop me taking my child back to his country of citizenship, and where he was born.

      Reading all of the above, I’d like to include a chapter highlighting other parents in a similar position, and hopefully let the world know what can/does happen if you relocate to NZ with your children.

      If you agree, please can you respond to this email with your permission to use your stories. The Justice system here needs to be highlighted on its underhandedness and entrapment processes it uses.

      Thanks

      Amanda

      • Hi Amanda,
        Can you let me know if your book is published and the name of it. My brother is in a similar circumstance as you. No one being held there is a kiwi – all American citizens. Why does NZ want them? Won’t let them leave.

        • We assume because it is such a small country it needs every person it can get, regardless of whether its in the best interests of the child or not.

          Other countries put the welfare of the child above the desire of their parent to trap them in New Zealand:

          Quake affected boys will not be sent back to New Zealand from Australia: https://e2nz.org/2014/01/27/fresh-hope-for-hague-abduction-convention-families-stuck-in-new-zealand/

          Father loses appeal to have Emma Maddison returned to New Zealand from Denmark: https://e2nz.org/2012/10/08/simon-maddison-lost-appeal-to-have-emma-returned-to-nz/

          • Admin,
            Do you have an email for Amanda (above). We are interested in communicating with her about our similar story.
            Best,
            Lise

    • I hear your pain. I send you so much love and respect. Want you went through sounded so deeply painful. May love and light pour into you and your daughters lives and one day you be reunited to live in the natural state of closeness that has been denied you. Our world is patriarchal. Fathers are vile from my experience after separations. A matriarchal society would never allow the sick possessiveness of father’s such sway. Love and anger, strong female rage! X

25. I don’t know what I’m supposed to do, I’m currently in England, on a month visit, the first since I have left, nearly a decade, and my wife has used the opportunity to ‘do the runner’ I revived a distressed call from her unfortunately, vindictive and manipulative mother, saying that she needed help and had broken down, that she was deeply concerned for my children’s safety, and she thought it best to go and get them, my wife was apparently leaving the kids with the child youth services, and my mother in law wanted me to give permission for her to take them back to Australia, to which reluctantly, and being that there was no contact with my wife, agreed should they be in danger.
    After flying out immediately she then initiated a conversation that was nothing to do with their safety, and was about how they where all off to Oz. I tried everything possible to keep her there, and our last conversation was a reluctant ok then whatever, I’ve got to go now.
    I am desperately trying to get my flight reorganized, so I can return early, I’ve only been gone a week. I’m sat here in the UK and I feel so helpless, I don’t know what I can do. I can’t take this agony. I was on a mutually decided trip to visit my home country where I left family after the passing of my father. Her argument began when I did not contact her for a few hours, she spiraled out of control, and I was barraged with abuse on the day I was attending my fathers gravesite for the very first time. Her mother is telling her she’s psychophrenic, and she’s made a feeble attempt at apologizing, whilst maintaining it was all my fault for not checking in for a few hours, bearing in mind the 12 hour time difference. Her mother will now be convicing her how much if an evil man I am, especially after laying the fault that she flew there on me.
    I don’t want to get lawyers involved, I have the most amazing children, and I just want her to be there for them, I am panicking now, and rambling, oh god

26. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10795699
    In the Kiwi press, TYPICAL, you only see left-behind Kiwis whose wives or husbands ran off screaming with the children. Not trapped foreign parents in New Zealand. What do they think life is like for us, chained to a life we don’t want here on their godforsaken islands? So many of us come from countries that are nicer places to live, and we have no support system here. Often the Kiwi partner has worked the system to the native’s advantage and we did not even receive a fair go in court. The stories of poor stranded foreign parents I have heard that will never see the light of day. But high-profile “poor Kiwi” cases sell papers, don’t they.

27. Hello to all,
    This unfortunately is not just a New Zealand base problem, I have two friend in the UK which are stuck in the same position, and 4 in Australia. Australia I note do not give any benefits at all to New Zealand women trapped under the system awaiting court, and generally you don’t get reallocation either. If your luck you may get legal aid. It brings in the problems with the hauge as well in this situation. I had a friend in that position no roof over her head, no money, and the New Zealand Goverment did nothing, and is doing nothing to help these women because they arent fighting hauge cases, regardless that they have had passport blocks against them. In fact when they were written to many different MPs they were so out of touch of the actual facts of what these women go through it was crazy. Then they wonder why these women, back their backs to get well qualified and immigrate to the UK, Canada etc.
    There are so many different issues that make this a matrix of problems that cannot be tarred by just one brush, all cases need to be access on the facts of that case not this one size fits all approach which is present. There needs to be a balance found not a swing one way to another. There needs to be a change world-wide in regards to reallocation, and on a case by case base.
    I personally was a foreign Women, in a foreign country when my Ex decided to walk out, and start his fourth family….(within 12 years). He cut the lease after threatening to do so, knowing that I was unable to get any help by the system, and that being a foreigner I wouldn’t get the lease. (Note the Justice system did not see this as abuse, or domestic violence.)
    My 10 month old baby and I were thrown out onto the street to sleep in the gutter, and no mnoey to buy food. I didn’t receive legal aid even tho, I was not working and he did with an annual income of $80,000. At the same time of this happening he expressed to all our friends that ‘I had run of with our child’.
    Passport blocks were put in place and we were trapped for almost a year in a foreign country, with no support, fighting a legal base uphill, fighting to survive. I have a $200,000 legal debt at the end of it but we did return home, after my ex refused to mediate and push right through to a court hearing on the tax payer’s purse. What my Ex bizarrely couldn’t understand that he was actually doing this to his child as well. He was unable to think actually of the child and put the child’s needs first. This was before I started studying and understood the Narcistic-sociopath (PDs) personality disorders, which are on the rise.
    He then breached the court order within a week, which allowed myself and my child to return home, due the self executing order in place, he didn’t want to pay a parenting payment, and so the court orders were breached.
    Once your child turns 16 their have the choice to move.
    On a final note
    ‘Faith is the bird that sings when the dawn is still dark’. ~Rabindranath Tagore
    Keep faith things will change,
    There is a need for it to change, in regards to England based Law when family courts are regarded, for the generations of daughter’s to come will judge our system and generation harshly from the history.
    There is a ground movement, present of unrest in many different countries because of this clear discrimination of the parent with the main custody, and the abuse.
    The question is, How do we all make a stand and say enough in one voice?
    Will many voices be heard? Or will it be dismissed because at least 80% will be women?

28. In the Algerian case, it is a matter of the father being entitled under Muslim law (had the Kiwi mum become a Muslim too? It probably does not matter as long as they are over there on his turf and he himself is Muslim) and the two countries have different parental rights systems, whereas in the Denmark case, if indeed the mother had planned it at all (and we do not know this, but being familiar with the excruciating courts here I would not be surprised), the mother played a quieter longer-term game, obtaining jurisdiction the legal way and not letting on that she was unhappy. Unless he can prove she was forum shopping, she has won the game fair and square, to the great benefit of her child, who is much better off in Denmark with or without her medical condition.

    It is my opinion that both parents were unhappy living in New Zealand, as many migrants are (how many migrants never find any of these sites about the realities of living here, but hate it nontheless? I can tell you that people who read and comment on these sites are the tip of an iceberg), and managed to find a way to beat the system. But I could be wrong, and the Danish mother would be foolish to admit she had been forum shopping anyway.

29. Have any of you posting on this thread read about the Azzaoui case? Guess he became fed up with life in “Godzone” and used subterfuge to try and keep the children in Algeria. Not blissed out in Kaikohe? Can’t imagine why. Someone probably told him that he would never be able to take them out of here, with the court system here. If they were born and raised in New Zealand, he should ideally have no case, but smart of him to detain them in Algeria just long enough to snatch jurisdiction. I feel bad for the mum, but funny in the papers there’s no sympathy for the parents stuck herein EnZed or the victims of Kiwi parents who played their cards to snatch jurisdiction. Just the “Kiwi” children taken to Algeria and Turkey.

    “(the consul) was reportedly involved in a tense stand-off over three children and sat on the floor refusing to leave the property “without my citizens”.”

    Can you imagine anyone from a non-Kiwi consulate going to those lengths to help some of us out? A stake-out in New Zealand, to have their citizens returned to their place of birth? Kiwi parent seizes passport and won’t return it, consulate steps forward to help? Noooooo, not mine anyway. Can’t imagine that level of care on the part of the UK, Canadian or U.S. embassies.

    No sympathy in the NZ press either for the things we have had done to us by Kiwis, to trap us here in New Zealand. They consider that New Zealand is okay to be stranded in, because any children Kiwi or half-Kiwi evidently belong here in New Zealand, and the non-Kiwi parent has to suck it up because this, as one person told me, is “the place to be”? Let some half-Kiwi kid be taken somewhere else though to the evil outer world, and they’re all up in arms about it. Typical hypocrisy.

    • Hi angryparent, we’ve mentioned the Mohamed Azzaoui case in comparison to that of the Maddison family.

      In the Maddison case the family left New Zealand to for the mother’s home country of Denmark, for medical treatment for the child that was unavailable in New Zealand.

      Read more: Kiwi Dad Wants His Kid Back, Let’s Hear From Mum

      After a period of time the father returned to New Zealand, leaving his wife and child behind. The mother decided not to return to New Zealand and there is now a custody battle over their 4 year old daughter who has been in Denmark since she was a toddler.

      Most of the publicity around this emanates from New Zealand’s and the father’s point of view. Accusations of kidnapping and child abduction are being made, but as far as we can tell, the child is lawfully in Denmark and the mother has every right to keep her there.

30. Hi there. I read all your comments with great interest. i sympathise with you all, I really do.

    I’m writing a book about our blended family’s attempts to relocate from one of the poorest areas of New Zealalnd to the capital city Wellington for work purposes. Its being written as a black comedy otherwise I’d be throwing myself off the nearest cliff.

    I woud like however to hear of your stories which I would like to use as other examples. Or if I have to disguise it as fiction ( already been warned off by one lawyer!) develop some stories based on actual events.

    I’d love to hear from you. take care Denise

    • Hi Denise,
      I know the feeling, I am gathering research at present based in New Zealand, UK, and Australia on the abuses of the Hauge, and the abuses in the legal system, and the family voilence issued based on the emotional and mental side of things. I have had to change names but have followed the facts in the cases, and the foreword reads all names and places have been changed to protect the guilty, if by chance an indivduals thinks that the story is about them the author and publisher suggests it is one’s own gulity Conscious, and refutes that that individual is involved in any of the stories within this book.
      One has to see the black comedy in these situations, it is to Depressing otherwise to believe that in this day and age that this clear blunt discrimination is happening

31. Frankly I don’t think they care. They see themselves as a vanguard of children’s rights but all they are doing by taking a virtuous “children’s rights stance” is giving especially cunning lawyers an easy template for drawing a “picture” of their client (and the other parent) that they want that judge to interpret in that perspective . One problem with the system is that they have no time and no resources. And the judges seem to be kind of naive about how cases are “crafted” (and some of the local dynamics or interpersonal relationships between professionals, as well) and do not reflect the child’s actual emotional reality. And to what extent a good lawyer affects the reporting of the situation. They’re also not very familiar with foreign cultures and have all the attitudes that are typical for here, which is the culture you’re playing this out in. So whichever parent can present a better “nativist care of children morality tale” or market himself better in the tiny time slot you have to make your case in, is the parent who gets his way. In your case, for instance, it would be very easy for the father to come out and play to all the stereotypes about “money grubbing mum running away with HIS children to her foreign boyfriend” You know that is what he would do..It doesn’t matter if he ignores them most of the time and might do the odd outdoor fun thing with them. If he can do a fun outdoor thing 3x a year and document it well enough, he can represent that as the whole of his life with them, because the court doesn’t know any different. The court can’t review a couple years’ worth of 24-hour videocam showing all the invisible hard yakka YOU put in with your kid that the father can never be stuffed doing, but would cumulatively make a huge difference in the life of that child if he or she were not able to benefit from it any longer. Nor can you “criticise fathers”. It just hurts the way YOU are perceived, for being “negative” – even if the father has problems that affect his functioning as a parent, or competing interests that constantly take time away from his parenting. It’s just a pile of dumb stunts, all of it. Mine for instance asks my son to give me calls in the middle of their meals or while he is playing a game so that he “seems reluctant” to call the mother or associates mother-calls with annoying interruption. Stunt. It is all a huge, ridiculous game I have enormous distaste for. And in the end, the stress and the time and resources taken away from parenting the children seems not to be worth any outcome. I could say “just don’t get caught in that situation in the first place” but who among us thinks they’ll end up this way?

    There is this idea that this is a “family friendly” place where you go to escape the problems of the rest of the world. But people experience hard times here. I’s a country that won’t look at the way people are having to live – and the way people are having to leave. Surely there are reasons to have a rethink, all the more so when for time immemorial our ancestors have migrated to better lives, and made themselves and the world stronger for so doing.

32. Thank you for your response, it is comforting to know that there are like minded people out there who relate to my frustration with the system. Who knows where things will end up for me and my children, but I am going to do my best as their mum in the meantime and face the challenges head on. I have to believe that eventually things will come good for me, and that I will be able to move on to the future I want for me and my children. The NZ Family Court system may eventually have to sit up and take notice of those of us in this situation if our voices continue to grow louder.

33. There’s a Kiwi woman in my town in a similar position. The father of this one is rarely even in the country, though he owns a home there, and I do not understand why they will not permit her to move on and make a better life for the child. I don’t think that New Zealand courts are unique in their current thinking that the mere presence of a father, of any sort, as long as he is a male and somewhat involved in the child’s life and not a complete reprobate, is some kind of instant ticket to the child’s permanent emotional well-being. We have the same situation of the NZ grandparents being not very child-centred and having more “emotionally available and age-appropriate” family in the other country. The courts seem to be ignoring things such as the country’s economy, educational, job and housing opportunities, the character of the local area (low-decile, crime-ridden or earthquake zone, etc.), the child’s possibly foreign heritage being somehow less important than the Kiwi heritage, entrenched conflict or poor communication between the parents, abuse or substance history, mother’s well-being, other factors, and focusing exclusively on father involvement in a very narrow perspective.

    I doubt you will be permitted to leave. Your boyfriend will have to move back to NZ and drive a taxi, or you’ll have to leave without the children, or he’ll have to wait until your youngest is 16, probably. There is a genuine blindfold about the conditions that make New Zealand a difficult place to live, compared to others, and a basic assumption that any father at all, even if a less effective or functional parent than the mother, is better than none and therefore counterbalances an entire host of other factors that would weigh against forcing a family to stay in an unhappy place for years on end.

34. My story is just unfolding and a little different. I am a kiwi mum, with two children who also have a kiwi Dad. My new partner of nearly 3 years has just had to move to Australia for work (he is highly educated and could not get a relevant job here in NZ) and had to leave me and the kids behind because of the inevitable difficulty in me being able to take the children with me (they are well under 16).

    I have not yet embarked on any journey to try and get out of NZ with the kids, as I know it is going to be a long and possibly fruitless effort. I have briefly consulted my lawyer but was told the usual story, and that I would probably not win in court. I have not yet even raised the issue with their father, as I know he will shut me down straight away – previous experience and his controlling nature make this an obvious reaction. I am devastated and very depressed. I just want to move on with life with my children and long to be with my partner overseas and at the moment feel like even though I left my ex, he still has control of me and my life.

    I appreciate that the father has a right to a relationship with his kids and they obviously love their Dad but they have their problems with him and some of his parenting methods are less than dubious. I have recently been through a court process to gain further day to day care, which was eventually granted after mediation and the children being consulted. However, the kids still see their Dad 5 days out of 14 which is apparently one day shy of me having main control in the family court’s eyes. He and his lawyer rallied hard for this extra day – which I wish had not been granted.

    I just want to know if there are other kiwi mums out there in my position too? I have family in Australia additional to my partner being there and I want to be closer to them and let my kids experience sharing life with them too. The children’s father’s family has had the benefit of access to the children up until this point and never taken great proactive or nurturing advantage of it. They are at times quite a passive negative influence on the children’s lives and the children don’t feel a close emotional bond with them. I would be willing to fly my kids back or even fly their father over as often as I could but just feel like things are not ever going to be in my favour and that the kids Dad will never be reasonable about coming to a solution.

    So as others have said, it is either I leave my kids with their Dad and go by myself, or I stay here and be miserable while the life I long for goes on without me – and as a mother I could never leave my kids.

    I would really appreciate hearing from others in my position as I gather the confidence to try and fight for a brighter future.

    • Your only hope of trying to relocate through the courts will be if you provide them with definite times of year, dates, days, etc when the children can have physical contact with their dad. As good mums we always say that they are welcome to have as much contact with their dad as possible; we will fly them back and forth as often as we can; etc. The courts look for a definite plan though. Sadly it sounds like your ex will not be reasonable about things and will dig his heels in even more if he knows that you have the chance at happiness. It is a dreadful position to be in, and also beware that most lawyers run a mile at the mention of relocation even WITHIN NZ, let alone overseas! I wish you the best…

35. This comes into it in New Zealand to a large degree with the clique mentality here

    the local who can use all his or her connections to do well and the foreigner who hates it, does not settle, wants to leave for that reason, and find they cannot due to the law favouring the party who can exploit the status quo

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/splits-harder-for-families-not-from-act/2332742.aspx

    Family law review in the UK recently deplored the amount of time it was taking for families to move through the court there. They should try it in New Zealand – much worse.

36. You didn’t read my post very clearly. We gave her as much contact as we could. Because we know how important it is to have both parents in her life.
    Though i refused to pay for travel costs for her as she was the one that moved away. As i have a house and 2 of my own children to provide for i couldn’t afford the costs.
    In the end she couldn’t be bothered seeing her child so often, which meant the girl thought her mum didn’t love her..
    The mum resorted to lies to try get the court to relocate the child closer to her.
    There were 3 different stories so the court, police and cyfs gave the child back to us. shes been in our care for 6 years now and doing fine,
    Im saying that the family court has finally cottoned on to the fact there are deceitful people out there and they have to make the best judgements they can on the evidence given. I am not accusing anyone here of doing that im just saying food for thought for the courts.
    Have many male friends who have spent their life savings to fight for their kids in court being accused of all sorts of soul destroying stuff. When all could have been done amicably and the children not put through interrogations from lawyers time and time again.
    Though i disagree with giving a child to a father on the benefit just because he has more time to be able to spend with a child. Its not time but quality time that counts. i can’t comment on whether other countries are better to bring up children as im sure anywhere you go “may” have the same problems as New Zealand. As you love your country ..so do i…
    I wish you all the best Kia kite 😉

    • fathers make ridiculous accusations too. I got the brunt of them. No proof offered. Just charges, and no proof was asked for. I had proof of all my charges. photos, police reports. I was utterly truthful and conservative. it did not matter in the end. some of the father’s accusations were quite wild, with the father’s rellies backing it up because blood’s thicker than water. both genders say whatever they can to win. it’s a shame for the kid’s sake.

37. Her “false allegations” can’t have been that effective – she only spends every other weekend with the child she gave birth to. Or would you deny her that too?

    One woman’s false allegations can be another woman’s hard truths. Perhaps you don’t like seeing your son from the perspective of someone who’s lived with him for a while.

    They have beaches and sand in Australia, and there are flights between the two countries.

38. These cases make me very sad as i am a loyal kiwi. But unfortunately my husband and i have also been involved in false allegations from my husbands ex so that she could gain custody of their daughter. Women like this have only made the mens right more active hence the problems with removing children from our country. We now have full day to day care with every 2nd weekend to the mum. We tried everything to make her have more contact but she would drag us through court to deny this and put us and her daughter smack in the middle of awful untruths.
    She is now relocating to Australia…my fear is that she will remove my step daughter from the country and we do not have the finances to chase her up. My thoughts are with those who are stuck here in my “awful, horrible , poverty stricken, backwoods country” Must be terrible to walk along the beach uninterrupted and look at the clear water and make sandcastles 😉
    from unedumicated kiwi

    • With all due respect and as a fellow Kiwi-you can build sandcastles on the universe’s most beautiful beaches, but if you are forced to do that without your children, it is utterly meaningless!!! It’s sad that you trivialize something so heart-breaking, just to defend NZ!

39. “Feeling very much the foreigner”. I know one local woman who was in a divorce case a few years ago. She was 1st generation Kiwi but had a distinctly ethnic (Eastern European) name. Her husband’s family was Anglo, of an older family, with a conventional Kiwi Anglo-Scots name. She said (in her 100% pure Kiwi accent) that she had been given the “foreigner treatment” in court. Her husband and the husband’s counsel knew exactly what to say to encourage this treatment. How many generations do you have to live here to not be a foreigner and be given the “treatment”? Or is it better to just change your name?

40. According to http://www.missingpersons.gov Child Abduction Report, “New Zealand consistently has the highest incidence of abduction and access applications.”

    Until 2001, most abductions were into New Zealand. Then the tide changed, and now more abductions are out of New Zealand. Most of the abductions to New Zealand were “from” Australia.

    Read “Janie’s” story in comments below this piece. I know a few cases like this. She is actually not alone at all.
    http://www.hugurkids.com/abduction-media/parents-now-more-likely-to-flee-with-kids-2.html?Itemid=64

    “Promised a good life” – yea right.
    Reply to Donna Richards
    Donna this may be a late reply, but you need to look at all facts before making such obviously uninformed comments.
    I came to NZ in 2000 after finding out that my husband who has both dual citezenship in NZ and the UK, that he had never applied for residency for myself and two older boys from my previous marriage. A month after getting here, he dumped us all, stating he no longer loved me, put a caps order on our son we had together in Scotland, thus I could have been kicked out of the country with my older boys, whilst my youngest kept against his will here in NZ, by what I found out was a Meth addict. I was also soon to find out that he had left my country under a very large cloud of debt. He stole my passports and entered the internal affairs office makign our son a citizen by decent, though he didn’t even need my passport to do this. I logged this with the police as I knew he had stolen my passport, and that of my middle son…Not his own! he denied this, but now internal affairs has it logged that he indeed did have my passports!
    You talk of morals and rights, but where were my rights? I married a man who promised me a good life in NZ, and it has been 8 years of hell, worst thing was I paid for us all to move here. Family have died whilst being held here, and I couldn’t go home to bury my poor father as I didn’t have residency status, and would not have been allowed back in.
    I have now decided to take this man on as before I had a nervous breakdown because of his abuse of me and my children, ad I intend to let the NZ, and British media know exactly what has happened to us.
    Please remember that some of us deserve to take our children home, and whiilst I did not have the fight then, I do now, and I will make it known so that no other woman or man has ths happen to them, and that certain countries are almost fanatical when it comes to family law.
    I have even stated that he himself is able to return to Britain with our child, so he can be with him, but he has such fear after what he did to us, that he is utterly determined to ruin any chance our little boy has of having a good life with a family that ruly love him.
    NZ has not been kind to myself or my children, and they would be better cared for in the UK, with family that actually care what happens to my little boy.
    Don’t beat us in the know ith your maorals, silly woman, know the facts before you spout utter crap about something you obvosly know nothing about.
    Janie

    • My ex stole my child’s passport (foreign nationality, not his own) and would not give it back. I tried to report it stolen to the police, but they said that either of a child’s parents had the right to have the child’s passport. The way in which he got it was not important to them. So watch out. Keep your child’s foreign passport in a safe place, and do not give it to the other parent under any pretext at all, regardless of why he is asking for it. Hold that passport. If he needs it for some purpose, go to the place where he needs it and present it yourself, then put it back somewhere safe, but keep it in your own possession. Make notarised copies if that will be accepted instead of an original. It is unlikely that if you did report it stolen, that the ex would put his signature on the application for a new one. Do not let that passport out of your hands, and put it somewhere hidden and safe.

    • This story breaks my heart, as it is SO similar to my own! I had 2 weeks to leave NZ before a forced bankruptcy was to be declared on me. I had return tickets to SA for my 3 kids and I, only to find a caps / Interpol blocking on their 3 passports. I had to leave either way, for the land of milk n honey seizes your passports and you are unable to travel for 7 years out of NZ if you are bankrupt! Furthermore, I would not have been able to obtain more credit which had become the only means of survival for a single mum of 3 kids; with expenses in NZ for a home AND a farm I no longer lived on; AS WELL AS a mortgage for a house in SA!! My weekly expenses were in excess of $900, and only received $620 on the DPB. Couldn’t work cos the cost of daycare per hour for 3 kids was more than what I could earn per hour. Sold everything I could to keep up paying for the mortgage in SA and finally went bankrupt. Very few understood. Most believed I “could’ve done something different at some point”

      Nobody will understand your situation, except the handful of us who have been through anything similar. I flew off without my 3 babies. Truth be told he planned it all that way-from the time I had filed for a divorce 6 years earlier and we were sent for 6 relationship counselling sessions by the Family Court. He threatened back then that the day I left him he would start ruining me. Let’s just say I’m living out his master plan one gut-wrenching day without my children at a time!

      Keep strong. Be positive. Put 1 foot in front of the other regardless of how it gets there. Pray, eat and breathe deeply. A lot. Everything indeed happens for a reason and I’ve found out the hard way that no matter how hard you work at it, some things are simply not meant to be. I crudely “use” my situation now to make others feel like their own situations are not half bad. There are many sociopaths and psychopaths out there who get away with the demented thoughts which are actually real to them. I’m determined to get some kinda “policing for the mentally unstable” in place before my life ends. I read a scholarly article recently about how every single one of us does the BEST we can at any given moment, given our finite knowledge and circumstances. It’s true. And it’s what we have to use to keep strong! Just tough to reconcile that these alienators actually believe that they are doing right by the innocent children they are brainwashing.

41. Im reading your posts with interest. I left my ex partner and my younger son and moved to the UK with my elder son as I could no longer tolerate my ex and wanted to have a life with a career. It was a hard thing to do and I was punished thoroughly by my ex as he made contact with my youngest son almost impossible for about 4 years until I eventually contacted the hague commision. Solicitors for the Hague in London were fantastic yet those in NZ which represented the commission were less so with one advising my ex to involve interpol in case I came and stole my son away…ridiculous and paranoid behaviour given that I had a fantastic career and lifestyle in London and was trying to have access with my son through the right channels. He was never sanctioned for breaking the agreement to provide opportunities for access. Through the courts and with the help of a barrister in Christchurch I eventually got my son over for access visits for a month at a time and by the time he was 11 he was able to come for a 6 month trial which he greatly enjoyed. It is only after the 6 months is up that the child then reverts to the other country’s jurisdiction and the counsel for child (or should I say my exs free lawyer) made sure my son was brought back to New Zealand and made a permanent order immediately that he was not to leave again …I have decided to no longer fight….the NZ family courts appear to have an agenda and allow their counsel for child to run the show…I cherish the 6 months I have had with my son but I think its NZ for him with its substandard education and lack of opportunities. My ex has already made it very difficult to have phone access again and I doubt the courts will do anything about it. I no longer waste money on lawyers and just tell my son to make his own decisions…this had the most impact….as far as you who are still in NZ…I had no idea as I thought my case was very isolated…I wish you all the best and encourage you to allow your children to present their own wishes to the courts after the age of about 9. Try to start off with holidays home and build from there if you can.

    • Oh my love, my heart goes out to you. Although I haven’t left my child in NZ, I have at times, seriously thought about it, leaving my beloved baby and going home to the UK for my home and financial security and my lovely family (of course you do when put in this position).It’s such a heart breaking position to be in and I totally understand you. I actually almost decided that I would leave without my child as I was so miserable in NZ. In New Zealand they seem perfectly happy to lt you go, knowing that a child will be without their mother. Oh but how reluctant they are to have a child face life without their father. OK, I know it’s a controversial subject. My my life long belief is that children, particularly in their first 5 years need mum more than dad, I do believes it’s a fundamental biological need (unless mum is crazy bananas or severely handicapped in some way) It is, I believe that NZ is so overly politically correct that they give presdence to the father over the mother because father rights movements have been so active in NZ for the last 5 years. Had your situation happened pre 2005 you probably would have been able to take your baby boy home to the UK. I often wonder, what will these children think when they are old enough to understand? Strangeley enough as I child I was in a similar sort or arrangement with my father having custody of me in the UK . I wish I had been under my mother’s primary care to this day (and I’m 34 now). I feel resentful to the courts of the 1970’s. I never imagined history repeating itself. I actually have a stronger relationship as an adult with my mum, who I love dearly, for all she went through, than my father. My father would often alienate me against my mother which I didn’t realise until I was a later teenager. Which is scary, because as a child you always trust and believe your parent. One day your son will come back to you with a stronger and different bond. I don’t blame my mother at all, I sympathise with her and we are on the same page. Plus and can moan about my dad and she totally gets it! I still speak to dad, but I can completely understand why mu mum left him. My mum is independent and strong. Do’;t you worry, your younger son will see that too one day xxx

    • I really want to get in touch with you as I’ve made the same hard decision about living in the UK and my child being returned to live in NZ with her father. It’s be great to talk to someone who has been through it

      • hi hmfalco,

        I am considering going back to Australia without my son and leaving him here with his Dad and his Dad’s parents, as I am just so miserable here. I really don’t know what to do. My son turns 5 in April. I would feel more a little less distressed about leaving if he was closer to high school age but by that stage I will be 40. NZ is definitely not the land of opportunity.

42. I am a kiwi stuck in Australia, the best thing the NZ govt ever did was allow our overseas born children when you are not married to become NZ citizens without the other parents consent, with this in mind I must agree even though I am stuck here the NZ law still on this small level works in my favour. I would like to see someone do a study on the impact of all this on the children and the stranded parent! its wrong on so many levels but what actually is the answer! when it ruins peoples lives and opportunities it cant be right! The other side is that out of spite and malice these other parents generally use this law because they “can” without the best interests of the child or the thought for the other parent. I think they should have an international law where parenting agreements are made prior to birth for dual nationalised children/ and parents living away from home countries that are upheld on an international level. There are no support net works for these parents as family certainly is not around and the cost of travel as a single parent is ridiculous with managing children as well. Come on people lets make a site where we can really nut this out and legally create a UN solution????

    • I totally agree with you- a pre-nup of some sort for parents of duel nationality should be an option. With a world of increasing travel and international relationships, it common sense (oh with hind sight- yes I’m a stuck mum in New Zealand). They should make it a clause on your immigration papers when you sign them “What protocol have you got in place should you relationship dissolve in X time?” We need to change the procedures for the sake of international families. Saving the court time, heart break, expense and depression of people. We all think of relocating abroad as exiting, but we need back up clauses.

      • I do not know whether a pre-nup would trump their COCA justifications. Do not trust a verbal or written agreement that you can “return if it doesn’t work out”. Mine counted for nothing in the end, and I had it in writing – though it was not a pre-nup. Proof of this kind means nothing to the courts, who seem to believe the solution to the world’s problems means keeping a father in a child’s day-to-day life, regardless of the father’s actions to the detriment of his own family’s well-being or the child’s close attachment to, or need for, her mum. Father – the magic ingredient This is typical of the simplistic solutions they prefer in New Zealand, but the problem’s everywhere now. When women wanted the vote and entered the workforce, they left the window open for men to snatch some of women’s historic turf, and in some cases it’s fair enough that they do, while in others it is not.

    • Debbie, I’m also a kiwi mum stuck in Australia and newly single. I am going to try and return to NZ with my kids via the legal system, as I am so exposed and vunrable here it’s ridiculous. I am currently studying, but was never able to apply for a student loan, and now I’ve discovered I am not eligible for study allowance, newstart allowance, parenting payment, state housing should I ever need it and disabiity allowance should I ever need it. I am currently getting $440 a fortnight from Centrelink, working casual (so if no work then no pay) and currenly haven’t yet received any child support). Due to the 2001 law change I’m classed as a temporary visitor, and to apply for permanent residency takes a hideous amount of time and costs about $3000. If you are lucky enough to gain permanent residency you then have to wait another 12 months before applying for citizenship. I think I am getting the message I’m not welcome in this country, but returning to NZ without my kids is not an option either. If anyone out there has any ideas for me to get out of here I love to hear them. Thanks

43. To the posters on this thread. I read that the court will not permit requested relocations of divorced parents out of Christchurch after the earthquakes, because of the bias against relocation and in favour of geographic status quo. Not a problem for a kid to have a building fall on them or be waiting for the next rumble or liquefaction episode, as long as they have both parents in the same town to be crushed along with t hem! LOL! Way to go and so typical – local rules, global drools.

44. she is screwed. They will keep the kids forever and you will be stuck looking at him with the chippie having your kids half the time. sorry. my children want to leave too and the courts will not let them.

    interestingly they gotothe end of the world to pin parents down here who want to relocate against partner’s wishes but they are not too keen on tracking down parental abductors TO New Zealand. They just want to stop ones from leaving that their citizens and residents want to chain here in Tar Pit.

    http://dartcenter.org/content/children-underground-4

    “Even countries that have signed the Hague Treaty agreeing to honor custody orders are reluctant to devote their resources toward tracking parental abductors. Some are more reluctant than others: France, Ireland, New Zealand and the Eastern Bloc countries are the least interested in pursuing such cases, underground organizers claim.”

45. I was wondering if you have any situations like my friends. she is the mother of 2 children and all three are originally British and have now received permanent passports in NZ having been resident for 3.5 years and the father also British and with a permanent passport having been resident for 3.5 years has walked out on them for another woman but doesnt want the children to leave NZ. My friend and her children do however want to return home permanently to be with her family but are fearful that unless he signs the papers they won’t be allowed to. What advice can you give me for her. Are there any organisations she can contact.

    • It is incredible that they can even trap children of other nationalities here if there is some Kiwi stake in the child’s affairs. But they do – all the time.

    • get her to get some consent orders that in the event of a family member becoming ill that in such situation she can legally travel with the children to visist a sick relative….. Then just make sure someone is sick…. ” a relative” as determined by law could be anyone so to the finer details make sure its not too picky down to immediate family make it broad and leave it open you would be amazed how many great aunts and second cousins are unwell underhanded but not impossible!!

    • going through a similar thing sadly help is not very readily available and courts here don’t favour relocating home I do however wish her every luck in the world

46. http://www.divorce.co.nz/divorce/article/dsp_articledetail.php?article_id=106
    I found this too. and segments cut out
    An Interview with Jeremy Morley – of International Family Law in NY
    “Most countries look at the best interests of the child but what that means, varies incredibly according to who the local judge is and what the local standards are. It is a function of predicting what a court would do based on what you think sounds reasonable in the circumstances. But countries like New Zealand and Australia will be extremely hard to relocate out of, whereas England is likely to be much easier.”
    Is New Zealand similar to Australia?
    “I deal with huge numbers of typically women, who just want to go home. They are the “trailing spouse,” they trail behind their husband as he moves to NZ, or they fell in love with him somewhere and he is from NZ and the deal was that they would settle there. When the relationship ends she is left with no network, family, no friends and sometimes no job”

    Huge numbers.

    • I am american trapped in oz. The court and even my own lawyers chastised me for daring to want to go home. The ex is abusive. A deadbeat a gambling addict who gambled away home. He wont work on purpose and i am forced to leave job early to drive kids to him for visits. Despite a college degree i am locked in poverty due to bad paying jobs for moms and now hav no job as last one was maternity leave position. He was lauded as great dad for even showing up in court after being forced to. My kids cant even visit america and tons of family. So therefore i cant as he has to be taken to court to even agree ti watch them. I was accused of being mental and a bad mother. It was taken as fact if he said it. Despite a psyche eval i was forced to take which said i was depressed alone stressed and suffering severe pts due to his abuse.
      We will be homeless if i dont find work asap.
      In the name of the children? What a crock.

      • I hear you on that I have had an with out notice order placed on me for telling my husband I wanted to go home this order accused me of trying to abduct my children and stating I am a flight risk the scary thing is he did all of this while he was in possession of my childrens passports.
        I have been made to feel like a criminal for expressing my desires and I thought New Zealand was a free democratic country it is proving that its as bad as a communist state guilty until proven innocent all I will say is if you want to migrate here and have children dont

47. http://www.transitioning.org/2011/02/02/singaporean-woman-trapped-in-new-zealand-with-baby-son-after-divorce/

    Was led to your site after reading about this lady’s plight and finding this page.
    I was searching because have a friend stuck in New Zealand for the same reason. I thought I could find some information to help her, but I don’t think I can. Some child custody law was passed that made it less likely that anyone could get out, she said. At the same time, there is a terrible recession, few jobs, especially for foreigners, and high costs. New Zealanders and foreigners are all trying to leave. Based on what two Canadian friends with residency who had brushes in the New Zealand courts informed me, Kiwis seem to know exactly what to say in their own courts. Trained to parrot lines from an early age, as that poor woman and others found out.

48. A lady named Elena Ustyuzhanina had a very sad story on http://www.petitiononline.co.nz not long ago.

    She experienced the same migrant discrimination in favour of the Kiwi father who was a sailor, and the court snatched her young child from her and gave to the sailor father, who is at sea all the time and the The poor biological mother, the one who gave birth to and raised this child to the age she is now, cannot even see her own child, because they blamed her for the child’s fear of the father and would not recognise the fear was real.

    Surely more of the same nonsense as people report above.

    • Oh my god, I find that disgusting. It;s like they think the dad is MORE important than the mum, just because he’s the local boy and the mum is the foreigner. Poor mum, my heart goes out to this lady! Believe me, I know, I am the original author of this article. When I first came to NZ, I would never have believed such prejudices existed in this day and age. My ex is a lay about pot smoking adolescent of a man with no career or motivation (I could really go into so many reasons here, but I won’t). I, on the other hand am organised, academic, caring, just an all round good egg, not to mention an evidentially loving mother. And amazingly, the NZ courts will justify in their twisted way brownie points for the kiwi boy. The one that really incensed me was the justification for him being on the DPB (for those of you from the UK, this is the kiwi version of the dole). They actually stated that for him to be unemployed was in our daughters best interests because it meant that he was constantly available to our daughter and that takes precedence over a working parent. C’mon, since when does a school age child benefit from a parent claiming benefits!? Most 2 parents families NEED to work. Because a the end of the day our drive is to provide for our children. I feel like my way of thinking is not just from a different country, but from a different planet some days. And I’m a tax payer…grr!

      • Contact the webmaster! I am sure many of us on this thread can be put in touch for support. Living in New Zealand puts an entirely different spin on the usual Family Court horrors.

        • We’re very happy to put people in touch with each other so they can form a support and information network.

          Leave your details expressing an interest, all communications will be handled in the strictest confidence.

          Let us know if there’s more we can do to highlight this issue in the blog.

          • Thanks. Great Idea. Where do we leave our details ?

          • Contact us on twitter/e2nz

      • ok i am kiwi my ex is kiwi but my fiance is americain and i want to relocate there. i have no parenting order in place i allow the father supervised visits as he is wasted most of the time and i want to keep my child away from that for as long as possible. he has said he wont let me leave the country or even the area. he will not even let me relocate in New Zealand. i am just about to start the first part of court processes, firstly a protection order as he is abusive. i would very much like to talk with some of you and be part of a support group. i am not happy here and i do think my baby needs a father figure but i dont think that has to be the biological father as up until now he has had stuff all contact and not wanted it. but he sees baby at f ‘fun stage now’ so wants to take him to his drug filled home. i hope and prey the courts wont allow him to be able to take him home. it will be very damanging to my childs developement.

    • I am Evgeny Ustyuzhanin the father of my daughter ********. I am not a KIWI but I am Russian. Mother of ******** refused to take care of her own daughter in ultimative form in front of the judge in the Court. Since then my lives with me. There is nothing to do with immigrants discrimination there are alot to do with the lies****** ******* put all over Internet. And it is asame to use such a lies.

      edited to protect the innocent

      • I checked this case out. The mother is outraged, outspoken, on a mission, and apparently feels that she, her daughter and son were treated unfairly. I do not know the details, but there is the possibility that – even if it wasn’t a knee-jerk pro-Kiwi decision – the mother’s refusal to hand over half the parenting time right off the bat, and her attitude towards the youth welfare institutions, led to her being “targeted” for her protective efforts, and there was no abuse or alienation involved on the mother’s part that would justify snatching the girl and refusing her access. She most certainly wanted to leave the country, a crime in itself. Shared parenting is generally preferred in the courts, but some teachers I have spoken with have told me off the record that the children who are bounced back and forth between homes do not do as well in school. The shared parenting approach is overwhelmingly favoured, however, regardless of a given parent’s ability parent, and when it does work, it is good, but it is not always the best thing for the children in all instances.

        • i have just joined this site, and are finding it very refreshing to hear the truth being spoken, to an otherwise gagged public, i can agree that “shared-care” is looked at with more validity than sole position parenting.. even if the “other” parent is lacking in certain areas. It has been my experience as a kiwi myself, wishing to further our lives over-seas that the
          old boy network is alive and well in the court system,
          my daughter and i had the opportunity to live in A fantastic European city, alas was forced to stay with the option being I could go, but my daughter must stay. A heart wrenching decision for any mother to make. Thus i am still here, best part is I’m in full time care of her now and she has improved immensely through that long fought on decision. Any study or research on the issue of shared parenting can often been seen as quite an unsettling experience for children,physiologically and certainly emotionally but good old n.z seems to be in the twilight zone on so many issues, this just being one.

          • I have just come across this site also, and likewise find it “refreshing to hear the truth being spoken to an otherwise gagged public”. Shared care is being given so much weight now. If you have been tricked into it in the first instance, to save your ex dollars on child support, as I was, you can be trapped into the arrangement for the remainder of your child’s upbringing, by the court. I was never happy with the arrangement. I felt it would be too unsettling for my child, but my ex simply wouldn’t listen because of the dollars it would save him. Now I am stuck with it for years, and have to continue dealing with a difficult man, and his unreasonable demands. I find it difficult to comprehend how the system has rendered me so powerless. As a mother, I feel I have very little rights or say regarding my child. How could the table have turned so drammatically in favour of fathers’ rights that mothers’ views are now being overridden and overlooked?

      • mmmm?are you not a citizen now?did you not ,after abandoning your Napier family, move to Auckland, divorce your wife, help your first wife immigrate from Russia to NZ and marry her again and now have your daughter in her care , whilst you are at sea 6 weeks at a time??your story is scary and does not quite gell.
        If the wife that helped you get to this country is in a state of defense and has made a mistake along the way from sheer desperation at being in a foreign country that is not familiar with your culture, on her own with 2 children, it is a wonder to me and many others that she can still continue to fight for her rights within her own culture.Speak as you will but live with your own righteousness.You just have more streetwise methinks. poor children.

49. One very painful thing is that when you move to New Zealand, you do expect to be able to travel some, to keep in touch with relatives and friends back home. It seems like it will be just an air ticket away if something happens. But when you move here, your money flees. You do not have that expendable income anymore, and travel back home is impossibly expensive. So when relatives or friends become ill, you cannot just zip back to be with them easily. It is terribly painful to be down in the middle of nowhere and unable to leave easily when relatives and friends back home are struggling with illness. You do want to be with them, to help and comfort and even give money, but you cannot do any of those things.

50. I am in a similar situation, and what is more, I know 3 other women in that same situation JUST in my town (which is not large) in New Zealand. Like you, I encouraged my child’s relationship with father despite his issues and tried to keep things as civil as possible, didn’t try any runners, and got absolutely no credit for any of it. I do not socialise widely, so there could be yet more mothers within a few km of here, as well, but I wouldn’t know it. I suspect there are actually a great many of us all told, all sitting quietly in purgatory. Maybe we should get together and talk. It’s hard to share with others, because they just don’t understand. In my case, there was more than one child concerned. Only my one child with the Kiwi father was of interest to the court, not my other children (who have a different father–previous marriage). Yes, we believed the hype about it being a “better place for children”, hype also repeated by the one child’s father, and it took about a year and a half before the bubble burst. The other children’s dislike of living here, and the distress their Kiwi stepfather had caused them with his behaviour (not to mention issues that would have gained me custody anywhere else but here), was of no concern or interest to them. So while the mother (myself) and other children did not want to stay in New Zealand, the father wanted to stay here in “his” home, and played his home field advantage (after stonewalling our life until he GOT jurisdiction in the first place), so the youngest child was ordered to stay, and so therefore I had to stay if I wanted to be near him and watch over him (a necessity with the father the way he is). I found very little of our reality was represented in court, and the father was catered to enormously. They worked off of a strict formula of “recent research on children needing two parents”, and nothing else but that, and in fact I sensed the judgment had already been made before we even went to court, based on that one gross rule of thumb. Moreover, one that derives from faulty conclusions of research whose raw data did not actually support those conclusions (see http://www.thelizlibrary.org/site-index/site-index-frame.html#soulhttp://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/lamb-kelly.html). Their focus was very narrow and formulaic. Everything the father had done was utterly minimised, and everything he alleged about myself was blown out of proportion and listened to in an effort to “balance the parties’ crimes out/equalise us” and thus dispose of the case because of their enormous backlog (years!). It was clear during the proceedings that the judge had not even read the details of the affidavits (what details I had managed to ensure stayed in there, which were very few). The affidavits were altered beyond recognition by my lawyer, who kept telling me I was not permitted to be negative in any way, because it would “go against me”, and scratched large numbers of relevant facts out of them, so our reality could not even be truthfully represented.

    Madam, you can’t say you are miserable in paradise – they’ll think you are crazy! And of course you shouldn’t be able to take the child, then, crazy lady. You can’t say that you can’t make ends meet here – they’ll just tell you that you’re bad with money. Didn’t you know that New Zealand is an inexpensive place to live? Of course, that is bad for the child too, to have a mum who seemingly doesn’t count her pennies. There is absolutely nothing you can say to these people that will convey the utter misery of living in their remote, provincial, drug-ridden, overpriced and opportunity-less hellhole because “it’s not New Zealand – it’s never New Zealand. YOU are the one with the problem if you want to leave”. God forbid you decide on counseling to help you cope (funds were earmarked to provide more counseling given the number of suicides Family Court was dealing with!), because the other party will make hay of that in court. So you can’t even go for counseling without it being used against you. The thick layers of bureaucracy and inability to simply tell it like it was – it was Kafkaesque. It took years even to get a hearing in the first place. Years! By then my other children had grown up in the shadow of the dispute and so years of the life we WANTED and still want to live have simply been swallowed up by NZ Family Court. We, too, are in limbo and wondering how long we can last like this, everyone having their plans on hold (including people back home who want to see if we can return or not) so one child can be near one parent, who simply wants to keep a job that he likes on his own home field, and nothing more. New Zealand is VERY strongly anti-relocation, among other things because it is so expensive to travel here that they fear the child will not be able to come back and visit the other parent, once permitted to leave, due to the high cost of air travel. So they just choose to trap migrant parents here instead. Great solution, eh. I am sure there are scores of us living in this purgatory. I have been vocal about this issue with any couples I know who are not happy living here, and one already, I know, as a result of my warnings, has refused to have children with her Kiwi partner until they could move back to her own, more developed homeland. Needless to say, she breathed a sigh of relief once she got back safe and sound. I hope that your sharing your story, and me sharing mine, will make people rethink moving here, or rethink having children here if they do not absolutely love it. I hope to god you can leave before she is 16. That is one long sentence, and one I am sure you don’t deserve. The new developments in Rosa v. Rosa (that is, the mother in the remote dismal mining town in Australia who was trapped so her daughter could be near her father, who refused to leave his job for everyone’s sake) may have some tiny ripples, but I am holding out no hope. I am going to keep filing (and thereby unfortunately being forced to use income that should rightfully be buying a home and college for all these children!) until we get to go home, where we want to be. It could be that your daughter’s opinion (if she herself wants to go back to the UK) would be listened to before the age of 16, and you could go home sooner. But generally, the longer they can keep the kids here, the more accustomed to the status quo in NZ they become, and they make friends and are afraid to change, etc., and the less chance they will share your opinion that the UK is a better place to live. I was disgusted by my experience with the courts. To anyone reading this – New Zealand is not in favor of relocation, so don’t think that you can “go back home” if you don’t like it here. You may well be chained for life if you want to stay near your children.

    • im yet another one trapped in purgatory here in nz. the one thing that i never can understand is how people in nz always tell me i should just go back home as im just the father, and start a new life. there is no way i could ever leave my children. unfortunatly i have to live in a underdeveloped, expensive, low job prospect country that i have nothing in common with ( im canadian which some say is similar, but i havnt found that at all)

      seems there are alot of other expats trapped here in nz.. might be worth setting up a dedicated web page on the issue, if any one is interested let me know

    • It’s me, the original author of this article. Courts not gone well. Unable to relocate home to UK for the “forseeable future” Really would love to get in touch for some support and friend making

      • Giving you more idea than “foreseeable future” would be kinder than letting you fester in limbo down here. It’s the limbo that kills, doesn’t it. If you knew what your sentence would actually be (until they are 16 and can choose where they live? can you even stay sane until then? will your kid even want to go at that point? will you be a lifer?), it would be different. You could mark the days off on a calendar. Years of not knowing and fruitlessly hoping “they’ll let you go next time”…it’s a kind of torture.

        John, I have heard horror stories from blokes, too. One man in AKL had a meth-using Kiwi wife. Made no difference.

      • Hi Helene,

        I am in a similar situation too. I want to take my son back to Australia but his Father won’t allow it. I live in one of the most expensive towns in NZ but the wages in this area are generally one of the lowest in the entire country?! I feel that when it comes to my ex it is more about him ‘winning’ and having power over me than it is to do with truly wanting more access to his son. To make matters worse, when we split my son and I and were entitled to nothing from him (financially) as his house was in a Trust and I currently receive $19 per week in child support. I am outraged, I feel cheated and more than anything I am just so homesick all the time. I realise that there are a lot of Fathers out there that have been screwed over by the family court system in the past and that is why the courts have decided to treat Fathers equally now, however I feel that they are overcompensating for past injustices and now Mothers like you and I, Helene, are paying for their past bad judgements.

        • I tell you I am a New Zealand woman and experienced being trapped in this shared care arrangement for years by my ex husband who happens to be from UK. Confining me to living in a ‘back water’ city to please his own needs of brainwashing her and making sure I do not have a financial future to provide all the good things of life.

          Well, he has 90% succeeded in his plan and now he has abandoned all contact with her when his last marriage failed. Blamed her for it!

          So now, its just the two of us with no suppport except a goverment benefit and now she is 14 I am being beaten up by Work and Income regularly, they love to make me cry.

          So, this game playing that the NZ Family Courts put people through is tough on everyone, and they say that they are looking out for the children. Joke. The lawyers and the judges have no idea what the children really want. Just bleed the parents of the money to pay for the next holiday overseas. The don’t care about the misery it causes, nor do they understand, because many of them don’t have children.

          I am still not over the pain and sorrow that this man has brought on my family. He also violated me in front of my other three children from a previous marriage.

          So, for anybody going through these kinds of things you have my sympathy. Just one final not, its differcult for me to share this kind of information. So. please respect this and do not post any bad comments.

          • I too am trapped in a shared care arrangement with a difficult man who also happens to be from the UK. He has played the system to get what he wants, to gain control, and I can’t believe the system has let him, encouraged him even. He has made my life so difficult its almost beyond belief. I agree the game playing the Family Court allows and encourages is crazy. They are not looking out for the children like they say they are. They have no idea what the children really want, and don’t seem to listen to the mothers who know & understand them best.

    • Hi there. I read all your comments with great interest. i sympathise with you all, I really do.

      I’m writing a book about our blended family’s attempts to relocate from one of the poorest areas of New Zealalnd to the capital city Wellington for work purposes. Its being written as a black comedy otherwise I’d be throwing myself off the nearest cliff.

      I woud like however to hear of your stories which I would like to use as other examples. Or if I have to disguise it as fiction ( already been warned off by one lawyer!) develop some stories based on actual events.

      I’d love to hear from you. take care

      • hello, i read you are currently interested in this topic, and i think my situation is very relevant. i am in wanganui and wanting to relocate to wellington (where i am from and where we met). i am a single mum to 3 children. i have only been in wanganui 4 years and am feeling very iscolated, i have no friends, no support here at all! communication is really good between me and the dad however he has now started saying he can’t just come over when ever i want. the other day i was nearly at breaking point stressing about money and i needed a break just a little break just an hour that is all, but he said he can’t just come over when ever i want him too, so clearly i don’t have the support any support here. if i am forced to stay here i think i will be very down. nothing worse than having to stay in a place you don;t like, with no support, anyway it is still in the looooong court process, hopefully i will recieve a outcome soon.

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